and we have been the safety valve, whether we wanted to or not, with the illegal entry here, in mexico, where their population is increasing and they don't have an economy that can absorb them and provide the jobs. and this is what we're trying to work out, not only to protect our own borders but to have some kind of fairness and recognition of that problem. >> mr. mondale, your rebuttal? >> one of the biggest problems today is that the countries to our south are so desperately poor that these people who will almost lose their lives if they don't come north, come north despite all the risks. and if we're going to find a permanent, fundamental answer to this, it goes to american economic and trade policies that permit these nations to have a chance to get on their own two feet and to get prosperity, so that they can have jobs for themselves and their people. and that's why this enormous national debt, engineered by this administration, is harming these countries in fueling this immigration. these high interest rates -- real rates that have doubled under this administration -- have had t